Dublin Core
Title
Oral history interview with Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes
Subject
Madison (Wis.)
Religious communities
Ethnic neighborhoods
Jewish community centers--Wisconsin
Yiddish theater
Urban renewal
Rights
Copyright 2023, Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes and Madison Public Library. All rights reserved. For more information, contact Madison Public Library.
Creator
Grunes, Sylvia Dworetzky
Contributor
Einstein, Daniel
Date
2022-12-03
Description
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes grew up in the tight knit Jewish community in Madison's Greenbush neighborhood, with her Yiddish-speaking Russian immigrant parents. Sylvia lived with her family in several residences in the Greenbush neighborhood beginning with her birth in 1926 until her marriage in 1946. The family home at 31 S. Mills St. was demolished as part of the 1960s era Triangle Urban Renewal Project which displaced many residents from the Greenbush neighborhood. The site of the former family home was later used to build the new Neighborhood House, still in operation today.
Sylvia shares her recollections of Longfellow elementary school, and the Jewish butchers, grocery stores and synagogues clustered along Mound St. She also describes her time at the Freida Weinstein Workmen’s Circle, on N. Mills St. The “Arbiter Ring” as the Workmen’s Circle organization was called in Yiddish, provided mutual aid for the Jewish community, as well as secular instruction for children in Yiddish culture and language.
Sylvia shares her recollections of Longfellow elementary school, and the Jewish butchers, grocery stores and synagogues clustered along Mound St. She also describes her time at the Freida Weinstein Workmen’s Circle, on N. Mills St. The “Arbiter Ring” as the Workmen’s Circle organization was called in Yiddish, provided mutual aid for the Jewish community, as well as secular instruction for children in Yiddish culture and language.
Coverage
Madison, Wisconsin
Language
en
Publisher
Madison Public Library
Identifier
madjewish-001
Sound Item Type Metadata
Transcription
Identifier: madjewish-001
Narrator Name: Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes
Interviewer Name: Daniel Einstein
Date of interview: 12/3/22
INDEX
[00:00:00] Introductions
[00:01:18] Parents, siblings, and languages spoken at home
[00:06:44] Education and teaching career
[00:09:10] Growing up in Greenbush neighborhood 1920s-1940s
[00:13:57] Greenbush neighborhood and its boundaries
[00:15:40] Jewish community and synagogues in the neighborhood
[00:21:38] Businesses in the Greenbush neighborhood
[00:25:55] Sylvia’s grandparents and family business
[00:30:39] Workmen’s Circle and Yiddish theatre productions 1920s-1930s
[00:41:09] Depression-era social welfare, and making a living
[00:46:42] Other ethnic communities in the neighborhood
[00:48:19] Longfellow School and childhood diseases
[00:53:52] Businesses in the Greenbush neighborhood (continued) and Sylvia’s high school job
[00:59:22] Former community hubs in and around the Greenbush neighborhood
[01:01:41] Urban renewal in the Greenbush neighborhood 1960s
[START OF RECORDING]
[00:00:00] Introductions
Interviewer: Today is December 3rd, 2022. And we're interviewing Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes for the Madison Public Library's Living History Project. I'm Daniel Einstein, who also happens to be Sylvia’s son-in-law for the past 30 years. We're recording in Sylvia's home on the west side of Madison where she's lived since 1957. Today, we'll be talking about Sylvia's experiences growing up in the close-knit Jewish community in and around the Greenbush neighborhood. So Sylvia, can you just tell us when you were born and where you lived?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well, I was born in 1926. And I remember living on Park Street, Mills Street, and Murray Street. And I believe we must have lived on Mound Street.
Interviewer: You moved around a lot.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yeah.
[00:01:18] Family, parents, siblings
Interviewer: Can you just quickly describe your family, your parents, your siblings?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well, my father, Harry, [inaudible] as he was called was a very, very wealthy man in Russia and Poland. He spoke five languages. He was very brilliant. And due to the revolution, he needed to escape Russia and fled to Poland to where his parents lived and later came to the United States.
Interviewer: And your mother?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: And my mother was one of nine children. She was a survivor. And when my father saw her, she was 16 or 17 years old and he fell in love with her and asked her to marry him. And they got married not out of love, from my mother's point of view, but for his money. And they had a house and she asked her husband to send for her family for the wedding.
And he bought all of them clothes and he brought them to live in this house together in Russia.
Interviewer: And you wrote about her experience in a book.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Right.
Interviewer: Can you tell us the name of the book?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: The book is called Rachel's Story. And she wrote in Yiddish and I translated it into English.
Interviewer: And then you published the book?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yeah. Well, I had it produced. I didn't --
Interviewer: You had it printed?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Printed. Right.
Interviewer: OK. So, Harry and Rachel were married and how did they come to the United States and how did they find a home in the Greenbush?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well, my father came first. The family who were here already sent money. And my mother said he should go first because she had the feeling if she went, his family would not let him go. So, he came first. And then several years later, they sent more money for her and Evelyn.
Interviewer: And Evelyn is your older sister?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Right.
Interviewer: And you had a brother as well?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well, my brother was born here in the United States. I have also a little brother who died.
Interviewer: And their names were?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well, my brother Victor and my brother Sol. And Sol unfortunately was born as a handicap and was placed at an institution called Southern Colony. And he died when he was about 11.
Interviewer: So, you lived with your parents, your older sister, Evelyn, and your younger brother, Victor --
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Victor.
Interviewer: -- in the Greenbush. What languages were spoken in your household?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well, mainly Yiddish. But with my siblings, we spoke English. But with my parents, we spoke Yiddish.
Interviewer: Was Russian spoken in the neighborhood?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: No, my parents spoke Russian if they wanted to keep a secret.
Interviewer: But the whole family understood Yiddish, because that was the language you use to speak to your parents?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Right.
[00:06:44] Education and teaching career
Interviewer: What schools did you attend in the Greenbush neighborhood?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Longfellow.
Interviewer: And then, what high school did you go to?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well, that was out of the Greenbush area but it was West High School. When we lived on 31-- I was living on 31 South Mills, I had a choice. I could go either to West High School or to Central High because it was right on their border line. And so, but I chose West High School because most of my friends went to West High.
Interviewer: And after you graduated from high school, where'd you go to university?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: I went to University of Wisconsin. I got my BA degree in Social Studies, which I did nothing with. And after a while I went back and I got my teaching certificate.
Interviewer: Where did you end up teaching?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: I ended up first of all at -- -- my first was at [inaudible].
Interviewer: Elementary school?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: And then I went to Huegel. And then I went to Jefferson Middle School.
Interviewer: So how many years did you end up teaching?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well, I started -- I'd say about 20.
Interviewer: Twenty years teaching?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yeah. Because I was 40 when I started and I was 60 when I retired.
Interviewer: And in case people haven't done the math, how old are you now?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: I am now 96.
Interviewer: Ninety-six. A long, good life.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well.
[00:09:10] Growing up in Greenbush Neighborhood 1920s-1940s
Interviewer: So, I'd like to help people get a feeling for what it was like in Greenbush where you lived from in the 1920s right up until, what, 19 -- until you were married -- right? In 19 -- what year?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: I was married in 1946.
Interviewer: In 1946. For the first 20 years of your life, you lived in or around the neighborhood --
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yeah.
Interviewer: -- of Greenbush. So, if you could pick one spot during that time that has a strong memory for you, and describe for us what it was like, what were the sounds, what were the smells of that special place in the Bush, where would that be?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: There's so many. I have to choose one?
Interviewer: Well, we'll start with one.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well one was on Park Street. When I was on the porch and Gypsies came by and my mother rushed out of the house and grabbed me. And she brought me in the house then says Gypsies steal children. But the Gypsies were so colorful, it was -- they were beautiful. And another thing is the smell of the bakery on Murray Street. The bread where we bought, I love that. And then sleeping on the porch on Mills Street, hearing the horses with the ice man and the milkman.
That was something I remember. Also, at one time, Madison had a trolley and I could hear them. The trolley go by the house, which was fun.
Interviewer: Is that how you got around the neighborhood, on the trolley or did you have a car?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: No, we did never, never had a car, ever.
Interviewer: All right. Well, we're continuing now after a little telephone call interruption. You were talking about some of the sounds and smells in the 1920s, 1930s living in the Greenbush, the horses, the street car, the smell of the bakery. Is your memory of Greenbush a happy one?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yeah, it is. I had no problems there. I felt very comfortable.
Interviewer: You had friends there?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: I didn't have friends, per se. It was probably just family mainly.
Interviewer: Well, let's talk about your family because you have a big family.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: I have a very big family.
Interviewer: And many of your cousins and the children of your cousins still live in the Madison area. Can you just name a few of the family members that lived in the Bush with you during this time?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: They did not live in the Bush.
Interviewer: Oh.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: They lived outside the Bush.
Interviewer: So, the Weinsteins--
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: The Weinsteins lived up Vilas Avenue. And my uncle Harold lived on Mills Street, but the other side of Mills Street. Even number, which didn't call. And my aunt Celia and Malcolm they lived down --
Interviewer: That would be Mintz?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yep, College Court.
Interviewer: Mm-hmm.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: So that was outside that area.
[00:13:57] Greenbush neighborhood and its boundaries
Interviewer: Let's talk about the boundaries of the Greenbush neighborhood because different people have different ways of describing where the Bush was.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Right.
Interviewer: What was your sense for the Jewish part of this neighborhood?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well, many of the people who lived on South Mills didn't feel they were part of Greenbush, OK? But if you want to include South Mills, which they don't want to, you would go to Regent, Regent to Washington and come up Mound Street or Murray Street.
Interviewer: So, Mound Street, Murray Street, between Park, Regent, and Washington, that was the core?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yeah, I would say so.
Interviewer: But some businesses and some of your family live just in the adjacent areas to the north of Regent Street --
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Right.
Interviewer: -- and to the west of Park Street.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Right. And my -- and the -- my uncle Hy and. --
Interviewer: What was Hy's last name?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Aronin]. They lived on Milton St. -- they lived on Milton Street but the other side of Mills Street.
Interviewer: The far west end of Mills Street.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Right. Right. So, although the family did not live in the Greenbush area, they were within walking distance.
[00:15:40] Jewish community and synagogues in the neighborhood
Interviewer: Tell us a little bit about the Jewish community and the synagogues that you belong to.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well, the first synagogue that we belonged to was Agudas Achim [Einstein note: Sylvia got the two names confused—she says “Adas Jeshuran”] which is very, very orthodox -- with the woman sitting upstairs and the men downstairs. And that was on the corner of Mound and Park. Then later, there was some disagreement and I don't know what it was but they built another little shul on the corner of Murray and Mound and my parents moved to that shul.
Interviewer: And what was the name?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: And I keep forgetting that name.
Interviewer: Adas Jeshuran [Einstein note: I say “Agudas Achim” but I was mistaken]
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yeah, OK. And so, they moved there. And so I attended that one. Now, the woman could sit downstairs with the men.
Interviewer: So, they were a little bit more reform?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well, they were -- probably. I don't know whether they would even call them conservative. They were orthodox, but less orthodox than the other shul.
Interviewer: And so, you went to Hebrew school?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: No, I never went to Hebrew school.
Interviewer: Or Sunday school?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Never went to Sunday school.
Interviewer: Did you go to services every week? Did you go --
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: No.
Interviewer: -- on the High Holidays.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: I went for High Holidays. Otherwise, I didn't go personally.
Interviewer: Was that because girls weren't expected to --
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well, I'm sure some girls went but I didn't, you know.
Interviewer: And was Victor bar mitzvahed at Adas Jeshuran?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: I do not remember where. I do not know. I can't remember that. I know my sister was married there.
Interviewer: And how religious was your family at home?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well, my mother, they kept kosher as far as I knew. Except my mother brought lamb chops a lot and I assume she got them from the kosher butcher but I'm not sure.
Interviewer: Your father was pretty religious.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: My father was religious. He went to shul and he taught bar mitzvah classes. He was very knowledgeable.
Interviewer: So, eventually the family moved to the new synagogue.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yeah. And?
Interviewer: And when was that? Beth Israel Center?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: When did Agudas Achim move?
Interviewer: Right. Mm-hmm.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well, this will be their -- what, 75th anniversary that they moved from there.
Interviewer: Do you remember when the temple moved or when people joined in this new temple?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: No. I don't remember the move exactly. But I --
Interviewer: I think that was 1949.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yeah, right. And I joined them and my dad -- my parents joined Beth Israel when it moved. And so, I joined also.
Interviewer: And you've been a very active congregant?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yes, I've been very involved.
Interviewer: What sort of things have you done at Beth Israel?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Oh, my goodness. I taught Sunday school for many, many years. I became very involved with women's league and led that. I helped run a gift shop, I sent out Yahrzeit cards. I volunteered in the kitchen, I cooked, whatever was needed.
Interviewer: And we should we should mention that Beth Israel Center is on Mound Street. But it's on the far west end of Mound Street.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Right.
Interviewer: So, not exactly in Greenbush.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Not in the Greenbush area.
Interviewer: But part of this Jewish core --
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Right.
[00:21:38] Businesses in the Greenbush neighborhood
Interviewer: Well, let's talk about some of the businesses in the Greenbush that you might remember. I'll just name a few places and then you can tell me what you remember. How about the Milwaukee Bakery?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well, as I said before, it's the smells of the bread which was wonderful. [Inaudible] it was owned by the Moskowsky family but the family changed their name to Moss. [Einstein note: Sam Moss says that the family name was changed when he was a child-he did not participate in that decision.]
Interviewer: So, you would get their traditional Shabbat bread.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: The challah and the rye breads and the smells were wonderful.
Interviewer: Mm-hmm. Did you walk over there to buy the bakery goods?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Oh, yeah. Right.
Interviewer: What about the Shapiro kosher butcher do you remember?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well, the thing I remember about them is the sawdust on the floor and my mother would buy a chicken and bring it to a shochet.
Interviewer: And what's a shochet?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: A shochet is somebody that slaughters a chicken traditionally. And he lived on Mills Street and she'd bring it over to him and I'd go with her. And he would slit the throat, say some blessing, and throw the chicken, and the chicken just choked. And it was not a -- it was scary to watch. And then my mother took the chicken home and pluck the feathers and cook the chicken.
Interviewer: So, I just want to visualize this. Your mother went to a kosher butcher and bought a live chicken.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Right.
Interviewer: And then walked down the street with a live chicken --
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Right.
Interviewer: -- to a place where a traditional butcher would cut the chicken's head and then --
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Throat. Just the throat.
Interviewer: The head stayed on?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yes.
Interviewer: And then you brought that home with you?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yeah.
Interviewer: You're walking down the street with a dead chicken?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yes.
Interviewer: And nobody thought that was funny looking?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: No.
Interviewer: That's just what you did?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: It is what we did.
Interviewer: You know, that reminds me of a story. I understand that your father liked to go fishing.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: My grandfather.
Interviewer: Your grandfather, I'm sorry. And where did he keep the fish that he caught?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: In the bathtub.
Interviewer: He kept them in the bathtub? So he kept them alive until --
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: They're ready to use.
Interviewer: And where would you clean the fish?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: My mother would clean it at the kitchen sink.
Interviewer: And how many fish can you get in a bathtub.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well, he usually brought in a couple.
Interviewer: Where did he go fishing?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: On Wingra.
Interviewer: On Lake Wingra?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yeah.
Interviewer: Did he take you fishing?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: No, he never took me. But he took many other people. Yeah, he loved fishing.
Interviewer: So what if you had to take a bath and there were fish in the bathtub?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well, we didn't take baths very often because it was cold water flat. And to get hot water, you had to put coal in the little furnace. And so, we took baths usually one night a week.
Interviewer: One night a week?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Right.
[00:25:55] Sylvia’s grandparents and family business
Interviewer: So, we didn't talk about your grandparents. How did they come to America and eventually end up in Madison?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well, as I said, my grandfather came first and he went to Sheboygan because he has a cousin there. And then, he was followed by two children Reuben and Frieda. Several years later, they too went to Sheboygan. In fact, that's where Frieda met Max Weinstein and that's where they got married. And they were cousins, which was unusual. And then Max opened a broom factory. And my grandfather worked for him in the broom factory, see. And then later they moved to Madison.
Interviewer: And let's talk about the Weinstein family because they were quite prominent in -- are still prominent in Madison.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Right. Well, Max was the president of the Workmen's Circle. He was a businessman and he supported the family in many ways. And he was -- and he married Frieda, very kind, gentle woman who bought things for us. She bought me my first doll. She bought me a coat once with a muff which I lost and cried. And unfortunately, she died of pneumonia.
So they renamed the Workmen's Circle in her honor. [Einstein note: They named the Workmen’s Circle School after Freida.]
Interviewer: Well, we'll talk about Workmen's Circle in just a minute, but I want to talk about the Weinstein family and their children.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: OK.
Interviewer: And the business that Max Weinstein ran.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well, their children are Arvin, Laurence, and Evelyn and Bernie. Arvin and Bernie became doctors, Laurence became a lawyer, and Evelyn was a home person. And they were a very close-knit family, very close knit. But what do you want me to tell you?
Interviewer: Well, what was the business that the Weinstein family had?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well, after the broom factory and they moved to Madison, he opened a liquor store. And that business grew and grew and grew and now they have General Beverage. And Laurence was president until he died. And now, his son Danny is president.
Interviewer: Danny Weinstein?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Right. And Joel Minkoff is president of the beer distributing.
Interviewer: Mm-hmm. So, the Weinstein and Minkoff family are closely associated with General Beverage.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Right.
Interviewer: And Laurence Weinstein was on the Board of Regents.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yes. He was. Very brilliant, very kind person.
[00:30:39] Workmen’s Circle and Yiddish theatre productions
Interviewer: Well, let's talk about Workmen's Circle, which you mentioned was renamed in honor of Frieda Weinstein.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Right.
Interviewer: So, what was the Workmen's Circle and what are your memories?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well, the Workmen's Circle was a school that we call that the shule. It -- that -- Monday through Thursday and Sunday was for choir and play time. And every day after school, we went to shule. And every day was a different subject. One day was grammar. One day was history. One day was literature. And it was conducted in Yiddish. And we learned to write Yiddish and we learned a few Hebrew words that were very common and it was non-secular.
It was not religious.
Interviewer: It was secular.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: It was secular. Right.
Interviewer: So it was Yiddish culture, but not religious culture.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Right.
Interviewer: And it was also kind of a mutual aid organization. It was a labor, advocacy, activist organization.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Right.
Interviewer: What was the Yiddish name for the organization?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Arbeter Ring Shule.
Interviewer: Which translates?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Workmen 's Circle School. And we would go early if -- when the weather was nice and play on the playground. And one of them, we'd play pom-pom-pull away.
Interviewer: What was that game?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well, there were two fences and you'd stay on one side. And there would be somebody in the center. And we'd say "Pom-pom-pull away. If you don't come, I'll pull you away." And you run and try not to be tagged. If you were tagged, then you stayed in the center. And you can play until the final person won. And we play that and have fun.
Interviewer: So we didn't mention that the building was located where?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: The building was located on the corner of Mound and Spring.
Interviewer: Mills and Spring.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Mills, I'm sorry. Mills and Spring. Yeah.
Interviewer: And what else happened at Workmen's Circle? What was one of the big activities every year?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well the big activity is every year they would put on a play in Yiddish. And so, they'd -- at night, after classes, there'd be rehearsals. And we'd spend a year at it. And they kept growing and growing until it got to the point where they were putting it on at the university.
Interviewer: That was at the university theater --
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Bascom.
Interviewer: -- at the Union. But also --
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: No. Bascom.
Interviewer: -- at Bascom. Well, in both places.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: They started at Bascom. And so, then they used the university students for the sets and this sounds, OK, and the lights. And then they move to the new theatre.
Interviewer: The Union Theatre.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: And [Fred] Buerki at the time was head of it and he furnished all the technical help.
Interviewer: OK. We're back with Sylvia Grunes. I just turned off the humming refrigerator. We're sitting here at the kitchen table. So, we were talking about Workmen's Circle and the theatre productions which happened every year.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Right.
Interviewer: How many people -- how many children were in these productions? How big was your class?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well, it depended on the play. When we went -- when we first started, everybody was involved in the little plays. But as they grew more and more professional, as they say, then they'd put on more serious plays. And then there may be a cast of 10. And the thing is they hired a makeup person from Chicago. And I was very interested in makeup. And I would watch him put on the makeup. And that’s how I became involved with makeup when I was in high school and at Madison Theatre Guild.
Interviewer: So, your interest in theatre started at the Workmen's Circle?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Right.
Interviewer: But you are also an actor in some of these plays.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Very few.
Interviewer: Very few.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Mainly children's plays.
Interviewer: But Evelyn, your older sister, was in many of these plays?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Oh, yeah. She was a fantastic actress. And she got her training at the Workmen's Circle, so.
Interviewer: Do you remember any plays in particular or the names of some of these plays?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Which? From the Workmen's Circle?
Interviewer: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: You know, that's crazy because I don't and I should.
Interviewer: Well, it's interesting because in the archives, I was able to find many of the programs that were produced to accompany the theatrical productions. Which have these wonderful photos of the actors and letters of congratulations from the mayor and from congressional representatives. It was a big production.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Oh, yeah.
Interviewer: It was not just a little school play.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: No.
Interviewer: People were very serious.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yeah. And it was crowded. You know, that many people came.
Interviewer: To listen to a Yiddish play.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Right. Yeah. It was utopia while it lasted.
Interviewer: That's how you remember it?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yeah, Workmen's Circle was my golden years.
Interviewer: What about some of the teachers of Workmen's Circle or --
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: There was only one. That was Philip Seigel. We call fraynd Seigel.
Interviewer: You call him a?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Fraynd.
Interviewer: Fright?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Fraynd. Friend, it means friend -- a friend. Fraynd Seigel.
Interviewer: Is that sort of like comrade?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: It might. Probably because everybody was called fraynd. OK. And so, he was the only teacher. He was the teacher, he's the director of the plays. Yeah, he was phenomenal.
Interviewer: What else do you remember about Workmen's Circle or did you have dinners there? Did they have --
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yeah. Oh, yeah.
Interviewer: Did the parents have activities?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: They had what they called cafeteria suppers, where people made food and brought it in or cooked it there and you paid what it is. And I remember my aunt Rose always made pies. And Mrs. Kulakowsky always made such great coleslaw that I remember. Those were fun. And then they'd have basket socials, where people would put food in baskets and then they'd auction them off. And when the Weinstein basket came up, prices went way up.
Interviewer: Was there some alcohol in there?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: I don't know what but all of a sudden the bidding went way up.
Interviewer: You know, I think it's important to remember that the time period that we're talking about is right in the middle of the Depression.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Right.
Interviewer: We're talking about the late 1920s through the 1930s when Workmen's Circle was such an important part of life.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Right. Right.
[00:41:09] Depression-era social welfare, and making a living
Interviewer: Did you feel like you were poor? Did you feel like you were somehow --
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well, I never felt I was poor. But -- -- my mother, because the income was low was on social welfare. And so when the social worker came, I had to hide my doll and not say I have anything. So, I don't know why I never felt poor however. But she felt we were poor.
Interviewer: So, tell me more about this social worker. This is a new story.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well, they would come and visit once a month to chat and make sure that, you know, what we bought wasn't alcohol or dolls or play things, that we were using the money for just food and the rent.
Interviewer: Your mother had a store for a while.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yeah, but that's when I was very, very little.
Interviewer: What do you remember about her store?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: The only thing I remember is being under the counter. I don't know why I have that vision. I was under a counter. And the next -- only other thing I remember is my sister going to school, going up the hill, and I was outside the store crying, "I want to go with you. Take me with you."
Interviewer: So, in the 1927 phone directory, your mother is listed as having a grocery store.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Right.
Interviewer: But she didn't have it for many years?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: No.
Interviewer: And you don't remember what she was selling? Was this -- was this unusual for a woman to open up her own store?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yeah, it was. Right, it was. My mother was always selling things. She sold -- she made a cleaning product. This is while we were on Mills Street. It had kerosene in it. It's in a little bucket. Then she'd go door to door and she'd show them how it work and of course it left a spot so they'd have to buy it. And she did that for many years. But her biggest was when she got into selling corsets.
Interviewer: Corsets.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Spirella corsets. I made out the forms for her.
Interviewer: Some people may not know what a corset is. Can you explain what that is?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well, it's -- well if they've seen any movie like Gone With The Wind where they -- Scarlett gets bound up in tight knit -- tight knit -- it's what women wear to support their back and to make them look thinner.
Interviewer: It's like a girdle.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yeah. Yeah. And so she sold Spirella corsets. I made out the form for her. She -- and she made a living from it.
Interviewer: So she would go door to door selling corsets?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Right. And then she get referred. And people would call her and she went out.
Interviewer: And your father had a hard time making a living?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yeah, he did. He was hired by Max Weinstein. And he would -- his first job was putting labels on bottles I don't know what they were, tax labels or what they were. And they needed some bookkeeping for him.
Interviewer: And he also was a teacher, a tutor in Hebrew.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yeah he gave bar mitzvah lessons.
Interviewer: And that's how your family made a living. But you were also getting support from the government during this period before the Second World War.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Right. Right. So.
[00:46:42] Other ethnic communities in the neighborhood
Interviewer: So you lived in a neighborhood that had other ethnic and racial communities, in particular, the Italian community --
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Italian community.
Interviewer: -- and the Black community.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Very little Black community.
Interviewer: What sort of friendships or connections did you have with, what I'm assuming were Catholic children in the Italian neighborhood?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well, only at school at Longfellow. But we got along. There was no -- I don't remember any bigotry or anything. People just got along with each other.
Interviewer: But mostly you were with your core group of family in the Jewish community.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Right.
Interviewer: But there -- you never sensed a conflict with other people in the neighborhood?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Not in the neighborhood. The only conflict I ever felt was when we were on Mills Street later with the St. James kids would be across the street and scream at me, "Christ killer".
Interviewer: So they were teasing you?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yeah. But they weren't part of my school or anything. They were going to St. James.
[00:48:19] Longfellow School and childhood diseases
Interviewer: Mm-hmm. Well, let's talk about Longfellow school for a minute. What do you remember? Any favorite teachers?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Oh, yeah. Miss Andrews Miss Wahl. I remember them dearly. I remember kindergarten, there was a slide in kindergarten. Also, I remember Miss Rasmussen. She was a speech teacher. And I think it -- she's the one that got me interested in theater the most. I had scarlet fever when I was little and they didn't expect me to live. And my -- they didn't let anybody in the room. But my mother snuck in the room.
Interviewer: You were at a hospital?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yes, in the contagious ward. And my mother snuck in to take care of me. And it was through her I got cured. And so, when I got out, I needed to have special care at school. And so, there was a building, there was Longfellow and behind it was another building for handicapped children. People who needed -- children who needed special care. There was a cafeteria and I was assigned to that building to go eat. And then another room to take a nap until the afternoon session started.
And there was a tunnel from the Longfellow school to this other building. And I would go through that tunnel to the other building, have lunch, come back, go to this room, and take a nap.
And that went on for I don't know how long. But then I got tired of doing that. So instead of taking a nap, I would go and I would sit in the auditorium and watch Miss Rasmussen do things with kids on the stage. And I really got involved with that.
Interviewer: So, just to be clear, this was -- what age were you when you got scarlet fever?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Oh, I must've been about --
Interviewer: First grade? Second grade?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Probably third grade or --
Interviewer: Third grade? So maybe 1932,1933?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yeah.
Interviewer: So we are talking about almost 85 years ago and you still remember Miss Rasmussen?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Dearly. She was one of my favorite teachers.
Interviewer: Now, were they keeping you in this special place because they thought scarlet fever was still infectious or that you were weak and that you needed?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: I was weak and I needed to have a good lunch. And I needed to rest. But after a while I got tired of that resting.
Interviewer: Were there other children that had scarlet fever?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Not that -- I don't know. I don't know.
Interviewer: That's so interesting.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yeah.
Interviewer: Nobody talks about scarlet fever anymore.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: I know. I know. But I did get it.
Interviewer: Any other childhood diseases that you had or your brother or sisters had?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well I had measles, but that's about it.
Interviewer: Do you remember people in neighborhood having polio or tuberculosis?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: None of the people in the Bush area. But that was later, when we lived on Midvale Boulevard, one of our neighbors have polio.
Interviewer: Mm-hmm. I think we often forget how many diseases have been controlled or cured over the last --
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Right. Yeah. Then everybody got -- this something to drink. The polio.
Interviewer: The sugar pills and --
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yeah.
[00:53:52] Businesses in the Greenbush neighborhood (continued) and Sylvia’s high school job
Interviewer: Yeah, I remember that too. You know, we got a little distracted. We were starting to talk about businesses in the neighborhood.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Oh yeah.
Interviewer: Abe Barash.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Barash.
Interviewer: Barash. Had a shoe repair store. What do you remember of that?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well, I bring my shoes there to get repaired. And Abe Barash was deaf.
Interviewer: Abe?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Abe. But we were able to communicate and --
Interviewer: How did you communicate with him?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: I don't know. We just were able to. You know, I'd show him my shoe and what needed to be done and I collect them. And I don't know why. One of the times I was in there he -- although he couldn't hear he always had the radio on. And I don't -- didn't know why. And it seems to me -- I don't know why he had the radio on. And he married another woman. His wife was also deaf.
Interviewer: Mm-hmm. And his son wrote a book about his father.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Right. Yes. And he had a daughter -- a son and a daughter. But that was not called Greenbush. Remember where he -- his store.
Interviewer: Well, technically it wasn't, because it was, what? Regent and Mills Street?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yeah, but they was up Regent a little bit.
Interviewer: Mm-hmm. What was right next door to the shoe repair?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: In the corner?
Interviewer: On the corner there. Yeah.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Was a grocery store.
Interviewer: Borsuk’s
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Borsuk
Interviewer: Yeah. What do you remember about grocery store?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well, Mr. Borsuk was called Bossy.
Interviewer: Bossy?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yeah. Because at one time he was president of Workmen's Circle. So we called him Bossy. But I would go in there and buy candy. And on the way out I would sneak a pea that was always at the corner so I could have it. But I'd sneak that out.
Interviewer: Wait, you are confessing to stealing?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: A pea.
Interviewer: One pea.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Right.
Interviewer: Do you want to confess anything else?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: No. No.
Interviewer: What about the Temkin grocery store? Temkin.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Oh, where I worked.
Interviewer: Mm-hmm.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yeah. I worked there for many, many, many years.
Interviewer: Where was that located?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: At the corner of Murray and Mound. And it was a grocery store. But basically it was for Jewish clientele because it had lox and it has rye bread in it. Mainly Jewish people attended there. Because a block up was another grocery store but that was an Italian store. That's where the Italian's shopped. So, the Jewish people shopped at this store.
Interviewer: And what was your job there?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Waiting on people. And doing everything, cutting the lox. You know, if they wanted lox, I'd have to cut it and wrap it up and weigh it. Yeah.
Interviewer: Did they have like a lunch counter? Did they serve food there? Or was it --
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yeah, they had counters.
Interviewer: So they had --
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: They had a couple of stalls. Yeah.
Interviewer: So, people would come for a deli sandwich?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yeah, they --
Interviewer: Did they have corned beef there?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. So, it was -- it had everything. Yeah. And Joe [Temkin], who is my boss was very nice. Very nice man.
Interviewer: Do you remember how much you were being paid?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: I think it was 50 cents an hour.
Interviewer: Fifty?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yeah.
Interviewer: That sounds like a lot.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: I think that's what it was.
Interviewer: You were you were well paid. This would have been the late 30s, early 40s?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yeah.
Interviewer: Mm-hmm. When you were --
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: On Murray Street.
Interviewer: So, you were in high school already when you worked there.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yeah.
[00:59:22] Former community hubs in and around the Greenbush neighborhood
Interviewer: Mm-hmm. What about the Schwartz pharmacy?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Oh, yeah.
Interviewer: Do you remember that?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yeah, I remember the Schwartz pharmacy. I remember their malted milk that they make, which was good.
Interviewer: What I heard was that the Schwartz pharmacy was kind of a community hub where --
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: People just gathered.
Interviewer: That if they wanted to find out the news of the neighborhood or maybe news about the sons, the boys that had gone off to war that they could get the latest news. Do you remember?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: But do you know there is still Steve Schwartz? He might remember more of this.
Interviewer: Mm-hmm. What about the Neighborhood House? Did you go to the Neighborhood House? Do you have memories of that place?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well, the Neighborhood House, I remember was on Washington Avenue. And my mother would go there to learn lessons.
Interviewer: Was she learning English?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yeah. And I would go with her and just play there.
Interviewer: So they had a childcare program?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Right. But that was in Washington Avenue.
Interviewer: And I think this is an interesting connection to the Neighborhood House because one of the homes that you lived in, what happened to that house?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: On Mills Street?
Interviewer: On Mills Street.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: It got torn down and the Neighborhood House took over that.
Interviewer: Right. So the current Neighborhood House is on the same property where you once lived?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Right.
Interviewer: The Neighborhood House has moved around a number of times.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Right. Right. But I've never been to the new Neighborhood House.
Interviewer: You know, I just saw an article that said that they're looking at building a new structure.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Oh.
[01:01:41] Urban renewal in the Greenbush neighborhood, 1960s
Interviewer: Yeah. They're going to move again. Which is a nice segue to this urban renewal in the early 1960s. What do you remember about them coming in and tearing down the Greenbush neighborhood to improve it?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: The only thing I remember is driving by and seeing a tub. A tub.
Interviewer: A bathtub.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: A bathtub on the top of this pile of --
Interviewer: Rubble. Uh-huh.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: That's -- it was very sad to see.
Interviewer: Mm-hmm. So many of these places that we've been talking about were demolished.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Are no longer there.
Interviewer: The synagogues, the Workmen's Circle building.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yeah.
Interviewer: Your houses.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: My houses, the Chordiks who lived next door. The Sheins lived on the corner. All those disappeared.
Interviewer: Interestingly, I don't know if you've been over to the Bayview apartments area, but they've torn some of those down just in the last couple of years and have now built new apartments. It's, you know, a piece of Madison history that is fraught. It -- I think the intentions were good, but it displaced a lot of people and --
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Right.
Interviewer: Did you feel like it was a good idea to tear down and try and rebuild in the Greenbush or do you think --
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well, I miss it. I miss some of the places. I miss Spaghetti Corners because I loved going to Jimmie’s [Spaghetti House] and [Josie’s Three] Sisters. It was just great.
Interviewer: Buck's? [Einstein note: Buck’s was a bar that came many years after and is not relevant.]
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yeah. But they're all gone. And there's no place like it.
Interviewer: Tell me about the Italian spaghetti corner. What was it like? Did you go there after school and hang out or?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: No, just went -- we went for dinner or sometimes for lunch. And the food was great.
Interviewer: Did you ever go to anybody's house that was from the Italian community and share a meal with them?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: No. No. No. On the corner -- on Milton and Park, a little beyond that, maybe the house beyond that is where the Mintzes lived. And there was a -- I think it was a chicken house there. They would raise chickens.
Interviewer: Who was raising chickens?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well, that's -- I don't know whether it was Mintzes or somebody in that area. But I do recall the Mintzes living there. And I would visit there. And Sarah Mintz, she always gave me a knipel on my cheek. [Einstein note: knipel is Yiddish for “pinch.”]
Interviewer: A knipel. I need to describe what you just did. You took a chunk of your cheek and you twisted it.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yeah. That was her sign of love. Sarah Mintz.
Interviewer: Well, I think I've got most of my questions answered. Is there --
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well, there's only one -- another grocery store that you left out. And that was Gazevitz was on the corner of Mound and Park across from the pharmacy. And it was called -- it was owned by the Gazevitzes. And the thing I remember about that grocery store is they would have barrels of pickles and different things. And you could pick up little items there, little -- they had a little grocery store the Gazevitzes
Interviewer: Are these the big, fat, kosher dill pickles?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Oh, yeah. They were great. So --
Interviewer: So any other stories before we finish that you want to share?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well, I can. There's so many things that have happened in my life. Who knows? But my early life was good.
Interviewer: That's a good way to end, I think.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: OK.
[END OF RECORDING]
Narrator Name: Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes
Interviewer Name: Daniel Einstein
Date of interview: 12/3/22
INDEX
[00:00:00] Introductions
[00:01:18] Parents, siblings, and languages spoken at home
[00:06:44] Education and teaching career
[00:09:10] Growing up in Greenbush neighborhood 1920s-1940s
[00:13:57] Greenbush neighborhood and its boundaries
[00:15:40] Jewish community and synagogues in the neighborhood
[00:21:38] Businesses in the Greenbush neighborhood
[00:25:55] Sylvia’s grandparents and family business
[00:30:39] Workmen’s Circle and Yiddish theatre productions 1920s-1930s
[00:41:09] Depression-era social welfare, and making a living
[00:46:42] Other ethnic communities in the neighborhood
[00:48:19] Longfellow School and childhood diseases
[00:53:52] Businesses in the Greenbush neighborhood (continued) and Sylvia’s high school job
[00:59:22] Former community hubs in and around the Greenbush neighborhood
[01:01:41] Urban renewal in the Greenbush neighborhood 1960s
[START OF RECORDING]
[00:00:00] Introductions
Interviewer: Today is December 3rd, 2022. And we're interviewing Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes for the Madison Public Library's Living History Project. I'm Daniel Einstein, who also happens to be Sylvia’s son-in-law for the past 30 years. We're recording in Sylvia's home on the west side of Madison where she's lived since 1957. Today, we'll be talking about Sylvia's experiences growing up in the close-knit Jewish community in and around the Greenbush neighborhood. So Sylvia, can you just tell us when you were born and where you lived?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well, I was born in 1926. And I remember living on Park Street, Mills Street, and Murray Street. And I believe we must have lived on Mound Street.
Interviewer: You moved around a lot.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yeah.
[00:01:18] Family, parents, siblings
Interviewer: Can you just quickly describe your family, your parents, your siblings?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well, my father, Harry, [inaudible] as he was called was a very, very wealthy man in Russia and Poland. He spoke five languages. He was very brilliant. And due to the revolution, he needed to escape Russia and fled to Poland to where his parents lived and later came to the United States.
Interviewer: And your mother?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: And my mother was one of nine children. She was a survivor. And when my father saw her, she was 16 or 17 years old and he fell in love with her and asked her to marry him. And they got married not out of love, from my mother's point of view, but for his money. And they had a house and she asked her husband to send for her family for the wedding.
And he bought all of them clothes and he brought them to live in this house together in Russia.
Interviewer: And you wrote about her experience in a book.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Right.
Interviewer: Can you tell us the name of the book?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: The book is called Rachel's Story. And she wrote in Yiddish and I translated it into English.
Interviewer: And then you published the book?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yeah. Well, I had it produced. I didn't --
Interviewer: You had it printed?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Printed. Right.
Interviewer: OK. So, Harry and Rachel were married and how did they come to the United States and how did they find a home in the Greenbush?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well, my father came first. The family who were here already sent money. And my mother said he should go first because she had the feeling if she went, his family would not let him go. So, he came first. And then several years later, they sent more money for her and Evelyn.
Interviewer: And Evelyn is your older sister?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Right.
Interviewer: And you had a brother as well?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well, my brother was born here in the United States. I have also a little brother who died.
Interviewer: And their names were?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well, my brother Victor and my brother Sol. And Sol unfortunately was born as a handicap and was placed at an institution called Southern Colony. And he died when he was about 11.
Interviewer: So, you lived with your parents, your older sister, Evelyn, and your younger brother, Victor --
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Victor.
Interviewer: -- in the Greenbush. What languages were spoken in your household?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well, mainly Yiddish. But with my siblings, we spoke English. But with my parents, we spoke Yiddish.
Interviewer: Was Russian spoken in the neighborhood?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: No, my parents spoke Russian if they wanted to keep a secret.
Interviewer: But the whole family understood Yiddish, because that was the language you use to speak to your parents?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Right.
[00:06:44] Education and teaching career
Interviewer: What schools did you attend in the Greenbush neighborhood?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Longfellow.
Interviewer: And then, what high school did you go to?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well, that was out of the Greenbush area but it was West High School. When we lived on 31-- I was living on 31 South Mills, I had a choice. I could go either to West High School or to Central High because it was right on their border line. And so, but I chose West High School because most of my friends went to West High.
Interviewer: And after you graduated from high school, where'd you go to university?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: I went to University of Wisconsin. I got my BA degree in Social Studies, which I did nothing with. And after a while I went back and I got my teaching certificate.
Interviewer: Where did you end up teaching?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: I ended up first of all at -- -- my first was at [inaudible].
Interviewer: Elementary school?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: And then I went to Huegel. And then I went to Jefferson Middle School.
Interviewer: So how many years did you end up teaching?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well, I started -- I'd say about 20.
Interviewer: Twenty years teaching?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yeah. Because I was 40 when I started and I was 60 when I retired.
Interviewer: And in case people haven't done the math, how old are you now?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: I am now 96.
Interviewer: Ninety-six. A long, good life.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well.
[00:09:10] Growing up in Greenbush Neighborhood 1920s-1940s
Interviewer: So, I'd like to help people get a feeling for what it was like in Greenbush where you lived from in the 1920s right up until, what, 19 -- until you were married -- right? In 19 -- what year?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: I was married in 1946.
Interviewer: In 1946. For the first 20 years of your life, you lived in or around the neighborhood --
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yeah.
Interviewer: -- of Greenbush. So, if you could pick one spot during that time that has a strong memory for you, and describe for us what it was like, what were the sounds, what were the smells of that special place in the Bush, where would that be?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: There's so many. I have to choose one?
Interviewer: Well, we'll start with one.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well one was on Park Street. When I was on the porch and Gypsies came by and my mother rushed out of the house and grabbed me. And she brought me in the house then says Gypsies steal children. But the Gypsies were so colorful, it was -- they were beautiful. And another thing is the smell of the bakery on Murray Street. The bread where we bought, I love that. And then sleeping on the porch on Mills Street, hearing the horses with the ice man and the milkman.
That was something I remember. Also, at one time, Madison had a trolley and I could hear them. The trolley go by the house, which was fun.
Interviewer: Is that how you got around the neighborhood, on the trolley or did you have a car?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: No, we did never, never had a car, ever.
Interviewer: All right. Well, we're continuing now after a little telephone call interruption. You were talking about some of the sounds and smells in the 1920s, 1930s living in the Greenbush, the horses, the street car, the smell of the bakery. Is your memory of Greenbush a happy one?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yeah, it is. I had no problems there. I felt very comfortable.
Interviewer: You had friends there?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: I didn't have friends, per se. It was probably just family mainly.
Interviewer: Well, let's talk about your family because you have a big family.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: I have a very big family.
Interviewer: And many of your cousins and the children of your cousins still live in the Madison area. Can you just name a few of the family members that lived in the Bush with you during this time?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: They did not live in the Bush.
Interviewer: Oh.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: They lived outside the Bush.
Interviewer: So, the Weinsteins--
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: The Weinsteins lived up Vilas Avenue. And my uncle Harold lived on Mills Street, but the other side of Mills Street. Even number, which didn't call. And my aunt Celia and Malcolm they lived down --
Interviewer: That would be Mintz?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yep, College Court.
Interviewer: Mm-hmm.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: So that was outside that area.
[00:13:57] Greenbush neighborhood and its boundaries
Interviewer: Let's talk about the boundaries of the Greenbush neighborhood because different people have different ways of describing where the Bush was.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Right.
Interviewer: What was your sense for the Jewish part of this neighborhood?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well, many of the people who lived on South Mills didn't feel they were part of Greenbush, OK? But if you want to include South Mills, which they don't want to, you would go to Regent, Regent to Washington and come up Mound Street or Murray Street.
Interviewer: So, Mound Street, Murray Street, between Park, Regent, and Washington, that was the core?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yeah, I would say so.
Interviewer: But some businesses and some of your family live just in the adjacent areas to the north of Regent Street --
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Right.
Interviewer: -- and to the west of Park Street.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Right. And my -- and the -- my uncle Hy and. --
Interviewer: What was Hy's last name?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Aronin]. They lived on Milton St. -- they lived on Milton Street but the other side of Mills Street.
Interviewer: The far west end of Mills Street.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Right. Right. So, although the family did not live in the Greenbush area, they were within walking distance.
[00:15:40] Jewish community and synagogues in the neighborhood
Interviewer: Tell us a little bit about the Jewish community and the synagogues that you belong to.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well, the first synagogue that we belonged to was Agudas Achim [Einstein note: Sylvia got the two names confused—she says “Adas Jeshuran”] which is very, very orthodox -- with the woman sitting upstairs and the men downstairs. And that was on the corner of Mound and Park. Then later, there was some disagreement and I don't know what it was but they built another little shul on the corner of Murray and Mound and my parents moved to that shul.
Interviewer: And what was the name?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: And I keep forgetting that name.
Interviewer: Adas Jeshuran [Einstein note: I say “Agudas Achim” but I was mistaken]
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yeah, OK. And so, they moved there. And so I attended that one. Now, the woman could sit downstairs with the men.
Interviewer: So, they were a little bit more reform?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well, they were -- probably. I don't know whether they would even call them conservative. They were orthodox, but less orthodox than the other shul.
Interviewer: And so, you went to Hebrew school?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: No, I never went to Hebrew school.
Interviewer: Or Sunday school?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Never went to Sunday school.
Interviewer: Did you go to services every week? Did you go --
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: No.
Interviewer: -- on the High Holidays.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: I went for High Holidays. Otherwise, I didn't go personally.
Interviewer: Was that because girls weren't expected to --
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well, I'm sure some girls went but I didn't, you know.
Interviewer: And was Victor bar mitzvahed at Adas Jeshuran?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: I do not remember where. I do not know. I can't remember that. I know my sister was married there.
Interviewer: And how religious was your family at home?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well, my mother, they kept kosher as far as I knew. Except my mother brought lamb chops a lot and I assume she got them from the kosher butcher but I'm not sure.
Interviewer: Your father was pretty religious.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: My father was religious. He went to shul and he taught bar mitzvah classes. He was very knowledgeable.
Interviewer: So, eventually the family moved to the new synagogue.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yeah. And?
Interviewer: And when was that? Beth Israel Center?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: When did Agudas Achim move?
Interviewer: Right. Mm-hmm.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well, this will be their -- what, 75th anniversary that they moved from there.
Interviewer: Do you remember when the temple moved or when people joined in this new temple?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: No. I don't remember the move exactly. But I --
Interviewer: I think that was 1949.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yeah, right. And I joined them and my dad -- my parents joined Beth Israel when it moved. And so, I joined also.
Interviewer: And you've been a very active congregant?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yes, I've been very involved.
Interviewer: What sort of things have you done at Beth Israel?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Oh, my goodness. I taught Sunday school for many, many years. I became very involved with women's league and led that. I helped run a gift shop, I sent out Yahrzeit cards. I volunteered in the kitchen, I cooked, whatever was needed.
Interviewer: And we should we should mention that Beth Israel Center is on Mound Street. But it's on the far west end of Mound Street.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Right.
Interviewer: So, not exactly in Greenbush.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Not in the Greenbush area.
Interviewer: But part of this Jewish core --
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Right.
[00:21:38] Businesses in the Greenbush neighborhood
Interviewer: Well, let's talk about some of the businesses in the Greenbush that you might remember. I'll just name a few places and then you can tell me what you remember. How about the Milwaukee Bakery?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well, as I said before, it's the smells of the bread which was wonderful. [Inaudible] it was owned by the Moskowsky family but the family changed their name to Moss. [Einstein note: Sam Moss says that the family name was changed when he was a child-he did not participate in that decision.]
Interviewer: So, you would get their traditional Shabbat bread.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: The challah and the rye breads and the smells were wonderful.
Interviewer: Mm-hmm. Did you walk over there to buy the bakery goods?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Oh, yeah. Right.
Interviewer: What about the Shapiro kosher butcher do you remember?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well, the thing I remember about them is the sawdust on the floor and my mother would buy a chicken and bring it to a shochet.
Interviewer: And what's a shochet?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: A shochet is somebody that slaughters a chicken traditionally. And he lived on Mills Street and she'd bring it over to him and I'd go with her. And he would slit the throat, say some blessing, and throw the chicken, and the chicken just choked. And it was not a -- it was scary to watch. And then my mother took the chicken home and pluck the feathers and cook the chicken.
Interviewer: So, I just want to visualize this. Your mother went to a kosher butcher and bought a live chicken.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Right.
Interviewer: And then walked down the street with a live chicken --
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Right.
Interviewer: -- to a place where a traditional butcher would cut the chicken's head and then --
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Throat. Just the throat.
Interviewer: The head stayed on?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yes.
Interviewer: And then you brought that home with you?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yeah.
Interviewer: You're walking down the street with a dead chicken?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yes.
Interviewer: And nobody thought that was funny looking?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: No.
Interviewer: That's just what you did?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: It is what we did.
Interviewer: You know, that reminds me of a story. I understand that your father liked to go fishing.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: My grandfather.
Interviewer: Your grandfather, I'm sorry. And where did he keep the fish that he caught?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: In the bathtub.
Interviewer: He kept them in the bathtub? So he kept them alive until --
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: They're ready to use.
Interviewer: And where would you clean the fish?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: My mother would clean it at the kitchen sink.
Interviewer: And how many fish can you get in a bathtub.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well, he usually brought in a couple.
Interviewer: Where did he go fishing?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: On Wingra.
Interviewer: On Lake Wingra?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yeah.
Interviewer: Did he take you fishing?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: No, he never took me. But he took many other people. Yeah, he loved fishing.
Interviewer: So what if you had to take a bath and there were fish in the bathtub?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well, we didn't take baths very often because it was cold water flat. And to get hot water, you had to put coal in the little furnace. And so, we took baths usually one night a week.
Interviewer: One night a week?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Right.
[00:25:55] Sylvia’s grandparents and family business
Interviewer: So, we didn't talk about your grandparents. How did they come to America and eventually end up in Madison?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well, as I said, my grandfather came first and he went to Sheboygan because he has a cousin there. And then, he was followed by two children Reuben and Frieda. Several years later, they too went to Sheboygan. In fact, that's where Frieda met Max Weinstein and that's where they got married. And they were cousins, which was unusual. And then Max opened a broom factory. And my grandfather worked for him in the broom factory, see. And then later they moved to Madison.
Interviewer: And let's talk about the Weinstein family because they were quite prominent in -- are still prominent in Madison.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Right. Well, Max was the president of the Workmen's Circle. He was a businessman and he supported the family in many ways. And he was -- and he married Frieda, very kind, gentle woman who bought things for us. She bought me my first doll. She bought me a coat once with a muff which I lost and cried. And unfortunately, she died of pneumonia.
So they renamed the Workmen's Circle in her honor. [Einstein note: They named the Workmen’s Circle School after Freida.]
Interviewer: Well, we'll talk about Workmen's Circle in just a minute, but I want to talk about the Weinstein family and their children.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: OK.
Interviewer: And the business that Max Weinstein ran.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well, their children are Arvin, Laurence, and Evelyn and Bernie. Arvin and Bernie became doctors, Laurence became a lawyer, and Evelyn was a home person. And they were a very close-knit family, very close knit. But what do you want me to tell you?
Interviewer: Well, what was the business that the Weinstein family had?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well, after the broom factory and they moved to Madison, he opened a liquor store. And that business grew and grew and grew and now they have General Beverage. And Laurence was president until he died. And now, his son Danny is president.
Interviewer: Danny Weinstein?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Right. And Joel Minkoff is president of the beer distributing.
Interviewer: Mm-hmm. So, the Weinstein and Minkoff family are closely associated with General Beverage.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Right.
Interviewer: And Laurence Weinstein was on the Board of Regents.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yes. He was. Very brilliant, very kind person.
[00:30:39] Workmen’s Circle and Yiddish theatre productions
Interviewer: Well, let's talk about Workmen's Circle, which you mentioned was renamed in honor of Frieda Weinstein.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Right.
Interviewer: So, what was the Workmen's Circle and what are your memories?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well, the Workmen's Circle was a school that we call that the shule. It -- that -- Monday through Thursday and Sunday was for choir and play time. And every day after school, we went to shule. And every day was a different subject. One day was grammar. One day was history. One day was literature. And it was conducted in Yiddish. And we learned to write Yiddish and we learned a few Hebrew words that were very common and it was non-secular.
It was not religious.
Interviewer: It was secular.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: It was secular. Right.
Interviewer: So it was Yiddish culture, but not religious culture.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Right.
Interviewer: And it was also kind of a mutual aid organization. It was a labor, advocacy, activist organization.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Right.
Interviewer: What was the Yiddish name for the organization?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Arbeter Ring Shule.
Interviewer: Which translates?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Workmen 's Circle School. And we would go early if -- when the weather was nice and play on the playground. And one of them, we'd play pom-pom-pull away.
Interviewer: What was that game?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well, there were two fences and you'd stay on one side. And there would be somebody in the center. And we'd say "Pom-pom-pull away. If you don't come, I'll pull you away." And you run and try not to be tagged. If you were tagged, then you stayed in the center. And you can play until the final person won. And we play that and have fun.
Interviewer: So we didn't mention that the building was located where?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: The building was located on the corner of Mound and Spring.
Interviewer: Mills and Spring.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Mills, I'm sorry. Mills and Spring. Yeah.
Interviewer: And what else happened at Workmen's Circle? What was one of the big activities every year?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well the big activity is every year they would put on a play in Yiddish. And so, they'd -- at night, after classes, there'd be rehearsals. And we'd spend a year at it. And they kept growing and growing until it got to the point where they were putting it on at the university.
Interviewer: That was at the university theater --
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Bascom.
Interviewer: -- at the Union. But also --
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: No. Bascom.
Interviewer: -- at Bascom. Well, in both places.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: They started at Bascom. And so, then they used the university students for the sets and this sounds, OK, and the lights. And then they move to the new theatre.
Interviewer: The Union Theatre.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: And [Fred] Buerki at the time was head of it and he furnished all the technical help.
Interviewer: OK. We're back with Sylvia Grunes. I just turned off the humming refrigerator. We're sitting here at the kitchen table. So, we were talking about Workmen's Circle and the theatre productions which happened every year.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Right.
Interviewer: How many people -- how many children were in these productions? How big was your class?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well, it depended on the play. When we went -- when we first started, everybody was involved in the little plays. But as they grew more and more professional, as they say, then they'd put on more serious plays. And then there may be a cast of 10. And the thing is they hired a makeup person from Chicago. And I was very interested in makeup. And I would watch him put on the makeup. And that’s how I became involved with makeup when I was in high school and at Madison Theatre Guild.
Interviewer: So, your interest in theatre started at the Workmen's Circle?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Right.
Interviewer: But you are also an actor in some of these plays.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Very few.
Interviewer: Very few.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Mainly children's plays.
Interviewer: But Evelyn, your older sister, was in many of these plays?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Oh, yeah. She was a fantastic actress. And she got her training at the Workmen's Circle, so.
Interviewer: Do you remember any plays in particular or the names of some of these plays?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Which? From the Workmen's Circle?
Interviewer: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: You know, that's crazy because I don't and I should.
Interviewer: Well, it's interesting because in the archives, I was able to find many of the programs that were produced to accompany the theatrical productions. Which have these wonderful photos of the actors and letters of congratulations from the mayor and from congressional representatives. It was a big production.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Oh, yeah.
Interviewer: It was not just a little school play.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: No.
Interviewer: People were very serious.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yeah. And it was crowded. You know, that many people came.
Interviewer: To listen to a Yiddish play.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Right. Yeah. It was utopia while it lasted.
Interviewer: That's how you remember it?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yeah, Workmen's Circle was my golden years.
Interviewer: What about some of the teachers of Workmen's Circle or --
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: There was only one. That was Philip Seigel. We call fraynd Seigel.
Interviewer: You call him a?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Fraynd.
Interviewer: Fright?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Fraynd. Friend, it means friend -- a friend. Fraynd Seigel.
Interviewer: Is that sort of like comrade?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: It might. Probably because everybody was called fraynd. OK. And so, he was the only teacher. He was the teacher, he's the director of the plays. Yeah, he was phenomenal.
Interviewer: What else do you remember about Workmen's Circle or did you have dinners there? Did they have --
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yeah. Oh, yeah.
Interviewer: Did the parents have activities?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: They had what they called cafeteria suppers, where people made food and brought it in or cooked it there and you paid what it is. And I remember my aunt Rose always made pies. And Mrs. Kulakowsky always made such great coleslaw that I remember. Those were fun. And then they'd have basket socials, where people would put food in baskets and then they'd auction them off. And when the Weinstein basket came up, prices went way up.
Interviewer: Was there some alcohol in there?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: I don't know what but all of a sudden the bidding went way up.
Interviewer: You know, I think it's important to remember that the time period that we're talking about is right in the middle of the Depression.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Right.
Interviewer: We're talking about the late 1920s through the 1930s when Workmen's Circle was such an important part of life.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Right. Right.
[00:41:09] Depression-era social welfare, and making a living
Interviewer: Did you feel like you were poor? Did you feel like you were somehow --
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well, I never felt I was poor. But -- -- my mother, because the income was low was on social welfare. And so when the social worker came, I had to hide my doll and not say I have anything. So, I don't know why I never felt poor however. But she felt we were poor.
Interviewer: So, tell me more about this social worker. This is a new story.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well, they would come and visit once a month to chat and make sure that, you know, what we bought wasn't alcohol or dolls or play things, that we were using the money for just food and the rent.
Interviewer: Your mother had a store for a while.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yeah, but that's when I was very, very little.
Interviewer: What do you remember about her store?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: The only thing I remember is being under the counter. I don't know why I have that vision. I was under a counter. And the next -- only other thing I remember is my sister going to school, going up the hill, and I was outside the store crying, "I want to go with you. Take me with you."
Interviewer: So, in the 1927 phone directory, your mother is listed as having a grocery store.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Right.
Interviewer: But she didn't have it for many years?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: No.
Interviewer: And you don't remember what she was selling? Was this -- was this unusual for a woman to open up her own store?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yeah, it was. Right, it was. My mother was always selling things. She sold -- she made a cleaning product. This is while we were on Mills Street. It had kerosene in it. It's in a little bucket. Then she'd go door to door and she'd show them how it work and of course it left a spot so they'd have to buy it. And she did that for many years. But her biggest was when she got into selling corsets.
Interviewer: Corsets.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Spirella corsets. I made out the forms for her.
Interviewer: Some people may not know what a corset is. Can you explain what that is?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well, it's -- well if they've seen any movie like Gone With The Wind where they -- Scarlett gets bound up in tight knit -- tight knit -- it's what women wear to support their back and to make them look thinner.
Interviewer: It's like a girdle.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yeah. Yeah. And so she sold Spirella corsets. I made out the form for her. She -- and she made a living from it.
Interviewer: So she would go door to door selling corsets?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Right. And then she get referred. And people would call her and she went out.
Interviewer: And your father had a hard time making a living?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yeah, he did. He was hired by Max Weinstein. And he would -- his first job was putting labels on bottles I don't know what they were, tax labels or what they were. And they needed some bookkeeping for him.
Interviewer: And he also was a teacher, a tutor in Hebrew.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yeah he gave bar mitzvah lessons.
Interviewer: And that's how your family made a living. But you were also getting support from the government during this period before the Second World War.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Right. Right. So.
[00:46:42] Other ethnic communities in the neighborhood
Interviewer: So you lived in a neighborhood that had other ethnic and racial communities, in particular, the Italian community --
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Italian community.
Interviewer: -- and the Black community.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Very little Black community.
Interviewer: What sort of friendships or connections did you have with, what I'm assuming were Catholic children in the Italian neighborhood?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well, only at school at Longfellow. But we got along. There was no -- I don't remember any bigotry or anything. People just got along with each other.
Interviewer: But mostly you were with your core group of family in the Jewish community.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Right.
Interviewer: But there -- you never sensed a conflict with other people in the neighborhood?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Not in the neighborhood. The only conflict I ever felt was when we were on Mills Street later with the St. James kids would be across the street and scream at me, "Christ killer".
Interviewer: So they were teasing you?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yeah. But they weren't part of my school or anything. They were going to St. James.
[00:48:19] Longfellow School and childhood diseases
Interviewer: Mm-hmm. Well, let's talk about Longfellow school for a minute. What do you remember? Any favorite teachers?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Oh, yeah. Miss Andrews Miss Wahl. I remember them dearly. I remember kindergarten, there was a slide in kindergarten. Also, I remember Miss Rasmussen. She was a speech teacher. And I think it -- she's the one that got me interested in theater the most. I had scarlet fever when I was little and they didn't expect me to live. And my -- they didn't let anybody in the room. But my mother snuck in the room.
Interviewer: You were at a hospital?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yes, in the contagious ward. And my mother snuck in to take care of me. And it was through her I got cured. And so, when I got out, I needed to have special care at school. And so, there was a building, there was Longfellow and behind it was another building for handicapped children. People who needed -- children who needed special care. There was a cafeteria and I was assigned to that building to go eat. And then another room to take a nap until the afternoon session started.
And there was a tunnel from the Longfellow school to this other building. And I would go through that tunnel to the other building, have lunch, come back, go to this room, and take a nap.
And that went on for I don't know how long. But then I got tired of doing that. So instead of taking a nap, I would go and I would sit in the auditorium and watch Miss Rasmussen do things with kids on the stage. And I really got involved with that.
Interviewer: So, just to be clear, this was -- what age were you when you got scarlet fever?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Oh, I must've been about --
Interviewer: First grade? Second grade?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Probably third grade or --
Interviewer: Third grade? So maybe 1932,1933?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yeah.
Interviewer: So we are talking about almost 85 years ago and you still remember Miss Rasmussen?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Dearly. She was one of my favorite teachers.
Interviewer: Now, were they keeping you in this special place because they thought scarlet fever was still infectious or that you were weak and that you needed?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: I was weak and I needed to have a good lunch. And I needed to rest. But after a while I got tired of that resting.
Interviewer: Were there other children that had scarlet fever?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Not that -- I don't know. I don't know.
Interviewer: That's so interesting.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yeah.
Interviewer: Nobody talks about scarlet fever anymore.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: I know. I know. But I did get it.
Interviewer: Any other childhood diseases that you had or your brother or sisters had?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well I had measles, but that's about it.
Interviewer: Do you remember people in neighborhood having polio or tuberculosis?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: None of the people in the Bush area. But that was later, when we lived on Midvale Boulevard, one of our neighbors have polio.
Interviewer: Mm-hmm. I think we often forget how many diseases have been controlled or cured over the last --
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Right. Yeah. Then everybody got -- this something to drink. The polio.
Interviewer: The sugar pills and --
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yeah.
[00:53:52] Businesses in the Greenbush neighborhood (continued) and Sylvia’s high school job
Interviewer: Yeah, I remember that too. You know, we got a little distracted. We were starting to talk about businesses in the neighborhood.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Oh yeah.
Interviewer: Abe Barash.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Barash.
Interviewer: Barash. Had a shoe repair store. What do you remember of that?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well, I bring my shoes there to get repaired. And Abe Barash was deaf.
Interviewer: Abe?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Abe. But we were able to communicate and --
Interviewer: How did you communicate with him?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: I don't know. We just were able to. You know, I'd show him my shoe and what needed to be done and I collect them. And I don't know why. One of the times I was in there he -- although he couldn't hear he always had the radio on. And I don't -- didn't know why. And it seems to me -- I don't know why he had the radio on. And he married another woman. His wife was also deaf.
Interviewer: Mm-hmm. And his son wrote a book about his father.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Right. Yes. And he had a daughter -- a son and a daughter. But that was not called Greenbush. Remember where he -- his store.
Interviewer: Well, technically it wasn't, because it was, what? Regent and Mills Street?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yeah, but they was up Regent a little bit.
Interviewer: Mm-hmm. What was right next door to the shoe repair?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: In the corner?
Interviewer: On the corner there. Yeah.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Was a grocery store.
Interviewer: Borsuk’s
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Borsuk
Interviewer: Yeah. What do you remember about grocery store?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well, Mr. Borsuk was called Bossy.
Interviewer: Bossy?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yeah. Because at one time he was president of Workmen's Circle. So we called him Bossy. But I would go in there and buy candy. And on the way out I would sneak a pea that was always at the corner so I could have it. But I'd sneak that out.
Interviewer: Wait, you are confessing to stealing?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: A pea.
Interviewer: One pea.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Right.
Interviewer: Do you want to confess anything else?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: No. No.
Interviewer: What about the Temkin grocery store? Temkin.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Oh, where I worked.
Interviewer: Mm-hmm.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yeah. I worked there for many, many, many years.
Interviewer: Where was that located?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: At the corner of Murray and Mound. And it was a grocery store. But basically it was for Jewish clientele because it had lox and it has rye bread in it. Mainly Jewish people attended there. Because a block up was another grocery store but that was an Italian store. That's where the Italian's shopped. So, the Jewish people shopped at this store.
Interviewer: And what was your job there?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Waiting on people. And doing everything, cutting the lox. You know, if they wanted lox, I'd have to cut it and wrap it up and weigh it. Yeah.
Interviewer: Did they have like a lunch counter? Did they serve food there? Or was it --
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yeah, they had counters.
Interviewer: So they had --
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: They had a couple of stalls. Yeah.
Interviewer: So, people would come for a deli sandwich?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yeah, they --
Interviewer: Did they have corned beef there?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. So, it was -- it had everything. Yeah. And Joe [Temkin], who is my boss was very nice. Very nice man.
Interviewer: Do you remember how much you were being paid?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: I think it was 50 cents an hour.
Interviewer: Fifty?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yeah.
Interviewer: That sounds like a lot.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: I think that's what it was.
Interviewer: You were you were well paid. This would have been the late 30s, early 40s?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yeah.
Interviewer: Mm-hmm. When you were --
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: On Murray Street.
Interviewer: So, you were in high school already when you worked there.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yeah.
[00:59:22] Former community hubs in and around the Greenbush neighborhood
Interviewer: Mm-hmm. What about the Schwartz pharmacy?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Oh, yeah.
Interviewer: Do you remember that?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yeah, I remember the Schwartz pharmacy. I remember their malted milk that they make, which was good.
Interviewer: What I heard was that the Schwartz pharmacy was kind of a community hub where --
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: People just gathered.
Interviewer: That if they wanted to find out the news of the neighborhood or maybe news about the sons, the boys that had gone off to war that they could get the latest news. Do you remember?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: But do you know there is still Steve Schwartz? He might remember more of this.
Interviewer: Mm-hmm. What about the Neighborhood House? Did you go to the Neighborhood House? Do you have memories of that place?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well, the Neighborhood House, I remember was on Washington Avenue. And my mother would go there to learn lessons.
Interviewer: Was she learning English?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yeah. And I would go with her and just play there.
Interviewer: So they had a childcare program?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Right. But that was in Washington Avenue.
Interviewer: And I think this is an interesting connection to the Neighborhood House because one of the homes that you lived in, what happened to that house?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: On Mills Street?
Interviewer: On Mills Street.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: It got torn down and the Neighborhood House took over that.
Interviewer: Right. So the current Neighborhood House is on the same property where you once lived?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Right.
Interviewer: The Neighborhood House has moved around a number of times.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Right. Right. But I've never been to the new Neighborhood House.
Interviewer: You know, I just saw an article that said that they're looking at building a new structure.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Oh.
[01:01:41] Urban renewal in the Greenbush neighborhood, 1960s
Interviewer: Yeah. They're going to move again. Which is a nice segue to this urban renewal in the early 1960s. What do you remember about them coming in and tearing down the Greenbush neighborhood to improve it?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: The only thing I remember is driving by and seeing a tub. A tub.
Interviewer: A bathtub.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: A bathtub on the top of this pile of --
Interviewer: Rubble. Uh-huh.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: That's -- it was very sad to see.
Interviewer: Mm-hmm. So many of these places that we've been talking about were demolished.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Are no longer there.
Interviewer: The synagogues, the Workmen's Circle building.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yeah.
Interviewer: Your houses.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: My houses, the Chordiks who lived next door. The Sheins lived on the corner. All those disappeared.
Interviewer: Interestingly, I don't know if you've been over to the Bayview apartments area, but they've torn some of those down just in the last couple of years and have now built new apartments. It's, you know, a piece of Madison history that is fraught. It -- I think the intentions were good, but it displaced a lot of people and --
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Right.
Interviewer: Did you feel like it was a good idea to tear down and try and rebuild in the Greenbush or do you think --
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well, I miss it. I miss some of the places. I miss Spaghetti Corners because I loved going to Jimmie’s [Spaghetti House] and [Josie’s Three] Sisters. It was just great.
Interviewer: Buck's? [Einstein note: Buck’s was a bar that came many years after and is not relevant.]
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yeah. But they're all gone. And there's no place like it.
Interviewer: Tell me about the Italian spaghetti corner. What was it like? Did you go there after school and hang out or?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: No, just went -- we went for dinner or sometimes for lunch. And the food was great.
Interviewer: Did you ever go to anybody's house that was from the Italian community and share a meal with them?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: No. No. No. On the corner -- on Milton and Park, a little beyond that, maybe the house beyond that is where the Mintzes lived. And there was a -- I think it was a chicken house there. They would raise chickens.
Interviewer: Who was raising chickens?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well, that's -- I don't know whether it was Mintzes or somebody in that area. But I do recall the Mintzes living there. And I would visit there. And Sarah Mintz, she always gave me a knipel on my cheek. [Einstein note: knipel is Yiddish for “pinch.”]
Interviewer: A knipel. I need to describe what you just did. You took a chunk of your cheek and you twisted it.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Yeah. That was her sign of love. Sarah Mintz.
Interviewer: Well, I think I've got most of my questions answered. Is there --
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well, there's only one -- another grocery store that you left out. And that was Gazevitz was on the corner of Mound and Park across from the pharmacy. And it was called -- it was owned by the Gazevitzes. And the thing I remember about that grocery store is they would have barrels of pickles and different things. And you could pick up little items there, little -- they had a little grocery store the Gazevitzes
Interviewer: Are these the big, fat, kosher dill pickles?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Oh, yeah. They were great. So --
Interviewer: So any other stories before we finish that you want to share?
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: Well, I can. There's so many things that have happened in my life. Who knows? But my early life was good.
Interviewer: That's a good way to end, I think.
Sylvia Dworetzky Grunes: OK.
[END OF RECORDING]
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